Furious Angels

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Cain Le Creuset
Trevlac
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    I dub him...FALLACY MAN

    Trevlac
    Trevlac
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    Post by Trevlac Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:05 am

    Lightning Count says:
    A psychic, Sylvia Browne claims that Heaven is on a higher harmonic frequency than this universe and is technically 3 feet off the ground.
    Lightning Count says:
    Except for one friend of mine we all kind of just ignore her
    Lightning Count says:
    But still. I like the idea, even if I know better
    Alice says:
    There are about 50 things wrong with that sentence
    Lightning Count says:
    Eh. As I said: I AM an occultist
    Lightning Count says:
    I do believe in magic and crap
    Alice says:
    Off the ground? See, only someone who doesn't understand dimensional space would relate a concept like "heaven" being "off the ground"
    Lightning Count says:
    Yeah
    Lightning Count says:
    I know that
    Alice says:
    Think about a 50,000 pixel by 50,000 pixel canvas. And it's filled with black. Then imagine a few dotted pixels are white here and there. Those are whole galaxies.
    Alice says:
    Now, imagine that you click on one and that galaxy expands to your canvas. Out of all the new pixels, 1 is our whole solar system neighborhood
    Alice says:
    Do it again and 1 pixel is our solar system. And again. 4pixel-chunk is our sun. a dithered less-than-1 pixel is our earth
    Alice says:
    now zoom into the earth and eliminate 70% of the pixels you see, leaving only 15,000 pixels
    Lightning Count says:
    Yeah.
    Alice says:
    of magnitudes of that order, this woman is saying that "heaven" happens to exist 3 feet (less than 0.0002 pixels) from 30% of 1/125,000,000,000,000th of the canvas
    Alice says:
    and for starters, the canvas you started with is only 1/56,000,000th of the size of the whole universe. Just OUR galaxy supercluster
    Lightning Count says:
    Hey, you don't gotta tell me all this
    Alice says:
    Yeah. I just like to feel smug for using probabilistic proofs to destroy people's retardation. Even if they never read it.
    Lightning Count says:
    Heh. As I said: I do believe in magic and all that.
    Lightning Count says:
    Maybe not in teh way you think of magic.
    Lightning Count says:
    But I believe implicitly in the ability of the human will to alter reality
    Lightning Count says:
    And a lot of things that go with that
    Alice says:
    And the idea of "harmonic frequency" as though matter is sound. Atoms vibrate with a certain hertz (frequency) however it doesn't make them more or less invisible. An electron is nearly infinitely many times faster in vibrating than a neutron (because of the electron cloud making measurements imprecise)
    Alice says:
    Yet we still measure electrons and neutrons in the same universe
    Lightning Count says:
    I may have used the wrong word for that. I kind of ignored it because I don't believe in her.
    Alice says:
    You've got it backwards. You can altar reality but not through anything intangible such as "will". Altering reality is as easy as observing it. Recall the Heisenberg uncertainty principle which states that objects change their behavior when observed.
    Alice says:
    And Schrödinger's Wave Function which states that you are only where you are because it is the most probable place for you to be. Without an observer, your atoms would exist everywhere. But because you were observed, most of them end up where you are except for a few atoms that are inside your ceiling, the core of the Earth, inside the sun, inside alpha centauri, and at the edge of the universe.
    Lightning Count says:
    Eh. I can't really argue the point because all I can offer is personal experience, which I can't really plug into your head.
    Lightning Count says:
    I don't REALLY understand how it works. None of us understands how anything works, really.
    Lightning Count says:
    I'm trying to find the right words
    Lightning Count says:
    It is....aggravating
    Alice says:
    "personal experience" is what peole feel is the last bastion of whatever they think. It's not. It's a logical fallacy in anecdotal evidence.
    Alice says:
    For instance, take the personal experience that when I was a child, a preacher touched my head and I fell to the ground unable to get up.
    Alice says:
    Some Christians might take that as a bolster to their faith. However I know how hypnotism works and both the methods and symptoms match perfectly. I was hypnotized and nothing more.
    Alice says:
    Things are not what they seem. If you rely on personal experience, then you learn nothing. It's a cyclic stream of information that just comes from yourself and you never grow
    Lightning Count says:
    But now you have personal experience regarding hypnosis. You can experience things that are true.
    Lightning Count says:
    No matter how many arguements someone puts forward for the fact that you cannot hypnotize someone, you have been hypnotized and know that it works.
    Lightning Count says:
    A single personal experience is NOT the end of knowledge, it is however the beginning of the process
    Lightning Count says:
    Or can be.
    Alice says:
    Thanks for the lovely STRAW MAN.
    Alice says:
    The reason I know that hypnosis works is not because I have experienced it, it's because of the mounds of peer-reviewed empirical data in public scientific journals which show it works.
    Lightning Count says:
    What's wrong with that arguement? You're basically saying "WE CAN NEVER TRUST OUR SENSES" which makes all scientific pursuit pointless.
    Alice says:
    God dammit, I hate you.
    Alice says:
    That's more straw man
    Lightning Count says:
    Right, but all of that stuff comes someone's experience
    Alice says:
    If someone put forth an argument against hypnosis, I would cite the evidence and promptly win.
    Lightning Count says:
    But all that knowledge comes from experience. Why invalidate your own and trust only that of others?
    Alice says:
    No, you're talking about two different concepts:
    Observing something repeatedly in a controlled environment with variables and having repeatable results.
    VERSUS
    A single or couple of experiences that "change someone's life"
    Lightning Count says:
    I didn't say that though.
    Lightning Count says:
    I didn't put particular perameters on it, nor did I say "Change someone's life"
    Alice says:
    Senses are used in all of them but the difference is that in Scenario A, everyone's senses agree, in Scenario B only yours can be confirmed.
    Lightning Count says:
    I'm merely saying that personal experience is not automatically invalid.
    Alice says:
    and it's not automatically valid. However by anecdotal evidence fallacy, it IS invalidated.
    Lightning Count says:
    How so?
    Alice says:
    If either the major or minor premise of any argument is shown to have committed to the anecdotal evidence fallacy, then the argument is not sound. If both premises are fallacious then the whole argument is invalid
    Lightning Count says:
    So basically "Personal experience isn't necessarily wrong, but if you use it in an arguement then that arguement is invalid" which is a very.... direct way of looking at an arguement. This presumes the truth of a 100% material universe.
    Alice says:
    Let's give an example:
    Martin experiences a bright light that shuts out his senses and causes him to, in his words, "Become stronger for a short time". He touts his ability with magic as the reason.

    Haley experiences a bright light that shuts out her senses and causes her to become stronger for a short time. Haley took a class on biology and knows that external stimuli can trigger adrenaline.
    Alice says:
    Martin's argument is invalid.
    Lightning Count says:
    So is Haley's.
    Alice says:
    No, it is not.
    Alice says:
    She uses a logical premise. Through debate we can determine if her argument is VALID. But we cannot determine if it is invalid because her premise is not invalid
    Lightning Count says:
    Entirely. Because you have no proof that it was an adrenaline burst except that that's the one thing she knows it could be.
    Alice says:
    "This presumes the truth of a 100% material universe."
    You need to clarify this because that sentence doesn't mean anything to me.
    Lightning Count says:
    It's sitll anecdotal evidence. "A bright light shut out my senses and I became stronger. My biology class told me that that could be adrenaline so it is"
    Lightning Count says:
    She might be right, but you can't know for certain based only on that
    Alice says:
    Oh God, pay attention. You do not have to prove something in a premise. That's what debate is for. A premise is an introduction that you make without being logically fallacious. Martin is committing the fallacies: Anecdotal evidence, and Negative Evidence.

    Haley committed NO fallacies since one possible reason for the effects is logically valid. Through debate we determine if the whole argument
    Alice says:
    is valid
    Lightning Count says:
    Unless you happen to believe in magic as possible.
    Lightning Count says:
    Which could be for any number of reasons
    Alice says:
    Just because something is useful does not make it true.
    Lightning Count says:
    My point si that all of your ways of classifying arguements and logical fallacies assume that you're right to begin with.
    Alice says:
    it's time to wake up and smell the flowers; belief in something means absolutely nothing
    Alice says:
    MY way?
    Alice says:
    Yep, it's confirmed. You've never had a debate, never formed a proper argument, and never studied logic.
    Lightning Count says:
    Never formally, but I've read about it, discussed it, and thought about it, and all of this stuff assumes that you are correct about the universe in the first place.
    Alice says:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_fallacy

    http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

    http://thewriterspulse.com/writing/forming-an-argument/
    Alice says:
    Read.
    Alice says:
    Now.
    Lightning Count says:
    If you wish it.
    Alice says:
    If you are one of those retards that questions all of reality then just kill yourself. It won't make a difference to you, but the rest of us will be one less mouth-breather
    Lightning Count says:
    But you should be warned in advance that I won't interalize it except in the abstract, as I believe that formalizing thought processes like this restricts thought more than assists it.
    Lightning Count says:
    I don't question reality in the manner that you're suggesting. "Reality is that which once you stop believing in it hasn't gone away"
    Lightning Count says:
    I do believe in reality, though I don't claim to know how it works. But I don't believe that saying that "Because Martin said it was magic he MUST be wrong" is logical.
    Alice says:
    KILL. YOURSELF.
    Cain Le Creuset
    Cain Le Creuset


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    Post by Cain Le Creuset Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:41 pm

    although i don't really understand much of this (and don't care to, to be honest), i found it all rather amusing.
    Kaen
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    Post by Kaen Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:38 pm

    Martin was hit by sunlight reflected off of a teapot in space.

    The tea was invigorating.
    Toothpick
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    Post by Toothpick Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:25 am

    How does this person not understand how silly that is? Thinking logically doesn't "restrict" your thinking, it FREES it of fuzzy ideas and hoodoo. I wish people could look beyond their "mystical" experiences, but too often they've made these events integral to their identity. To question the vision-quest of the Neo-Shaman as being a stress-based hallucination is to invalidate his whole world-view, everything he's striven for since then.
    It makes me a sad panda Sad
    Daius
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    Post by Daius Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:58 pm

    I dub him...FALLACY MAN Doyoub11

    I BELIEVE IN MAGIC!
    Ordin
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    Post by Ordin Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:27 am

    Jesus = magic.
    Toothpick
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    Post by Toothpick Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:30 am

    I dub him...FALLACY MAN 2008-07-01-JesusPAGE
    Trevlac
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    Post by Trevlac Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:09 am

    Ordin wrote:Jesus = magic.

    Hey man, the angel Uriel gave Christians magic. I dunno why they don't use it.
    Kaen
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    Post by Kaen Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:56 pm

    Hildegard had the original x-ray specs. She saw a fetus inside a cow.

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